HWDBA July meeting features downtown parking
From HWDBA:
On Thursday, July 9, the Historic Woodland Downtown Business Association will host Cynthia Shallit at their monthly business meeting. Cynthia is the redevelopment manager for the City of Woodland and will be discussing, informing and answering questions regarding downtown parking plans, needs and ideas.
The meeting is scheduled for 5:30 pm at Ludy’s Main Street BBQ on the back patio, 667 Main Street.
Posts
38 comments:
I will be forwarding comments and ideas about this post to Cynthia Shallit in case you don't belong to the HWDBA or you can't attend the meeting.
You can also email your ideas and comments to Cynthia.Shallit@cityofwoodland.org.
Bring back diagonal parking on Main... or parts of Main. It's historic, maybe not 1880s, but it's historic.
Here's a link to the Blue Wing Gallery site that shows an old photo taken by Shinkle:
http://www.bluewinggallery.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6706
Traffic patterns and circulation need to be addressed with parking. Slow down traffic on Main Street... it needs to be shopper/pedestrian friendly. Right now it's a tunnel and the speeders, passers-through have no regard to the stores or storefronts.
No city funded or operated garage at one location.
I agree with the diagonal parking change. It would make it easier to get in and out of the parking place. I think it would also add additional spaces per block as well. It should be considered for the entire length of main street between east and west streets. It would set the tone for the area to be much more pedestrian friendly and slow the traffic of passing motorest. At one time, my office was on west main street, and the flow of traffic went by so quickly there was no benefit to be located there. You had to watch out from passing traffic more then anything else while walking or driving in and out of businesses. Slowing down traffic will allow those who want to shop downtown to do it in a better setting, and those using main street as a main traffic collector to move onto other quicker moving traffic options. Many other cities even have down town speed bumps to help in slowing auto movment. The recent changes in good and bad in these other cities could be our guide. Marysville and Vacaville areas come to mind. As does the old Sac area with diagonal parking.
Why not put cobblestone down just like Old Sac so if they do speed it will make their brain metagrobolized.
Maybe big steaming piles of horse pucky up and down Main Street with one non-union horse tied up to the hitchin' post at any one time to give Woodland the ambience of a one horse town...(they don't need to know that we really have two horses)
I just learned that the firm the city selected, Fehr and Peers, will be discussing their approach to the analysis and present any data they have so far.
They are still in the process of completing their work. According to Cynthia, "Fehr and Peers is a well known transportation consulting company. They were selected out of a field of nine respondents."
3:57
The horse should be parked diagonally.
Festus, maybe Stick a dunk tank or waterboarding tank down town with Matt Rexroad in it for a fund raiser to pay for the hay to feed the horses. Fun for the kids and family.
Diagonal parking will not work unless you completely divert the traffic off of Main Street. I have studied this and it just has to many negatives that it would not be feasibile currently.
Could it work? Given what I know and have researched unlikey for many many years.
Question: Anyone know how many spaces would be gained by having a side be diagonal only?
Al,
I'd like to see some of that research.
List some of the negatives.
What do you know?
Saying that traffic would have to be completely diverted off of Main Street does not help your position.
Al E,
I own another business downtown.
You made this comment "Diagonal parking will not work unless you completely divert the traffic off of Main Street."
What are you thinking???
We do NOT want all that automobile traffic flying straight through our downtown. That is a HUGE reason people who want to shop downtown DO NOT currently. Not only is our downtown crazy for autos, it is even worse for bicycles or even pedestrians.
Keep the freeway traffic on the freeway and allow the folks who want to visit our downtown to have a quiet, pleasant, slow and safe place to enjoy.
11:15
I agree. And the city needs to just take the bull by the horns and just DO something.
Once again they are waiting for consultants to provide numbers that are already there (parking inventory) and to generate some make-believe projections to justify their dream of a garage. Hopefully... if a garage is built, the people who really need it will pay for it (like the state, county, developer, etc.) and the city can focus on transforming the downtown circulation into a user-friendly environment.
There are many areas on Main that will benefit from diagonal parking. There are areas on Court where more street parking can be added (like the lengthy red zones by the old firehouse and the library). If the city can think outside the box, there are inexpensive ways to transform the downtown into a place to hang out rather than remain an express tunnel to all the fast food and the casino.
In regards to Al's question about how many spaces will be added by diagonal parking... I don't think there will be a dramatic increase in spaces but there will be an increase. To me, it's more about providing better ambiance and changing the space and the quality of traffic and parking. That said, there are still a lot of different ways to better utilize the streets for more parking. Diagonal parking is just part of a whole transformation.
Al E
"I have studied this and it just has to many negatives that it would not be feasibile currently."
What are the negatives?
"Could it work? Given what I know and have researched unlikey for many many years."
Let's hear some of what you know and what your research says.
It's easy to say you have facts and figures, but unless you can back up what you say, it means nothing. I believe in science.
~Jonny Quest
33 spaces could be added at a nominal cost between Elm and Third.
See, we're knocking away at the parking Xanadu. The more spaces we can find on existing land, the smaller a garage needs to be. Again, I don't think diagonal parking will create a dramatic increase but it will add some. 33 is more than I would have guessed.
Add some more on Court between First and College. The fire station has moved so there is no longer the need for that huge red zone.
So far, because real numbers are emerging, the pie-in-the-sky-super-solution of a garage has dwindled from a nearly 700 stall facility to closer to a 400 stall facility. Do you realize how many millions are saved? And remember... those 150 spaces that the county now provides for jurors will be vacant. Maybe then county employees will use their own space to park rather than shopper's spaces.
If you use diagonal parking what happens to the left hand turn lanes?
Al,
Is that your research? At least two people are interested in why diagonal parking won't work.
The left hand turn lanes go bye-bye.
Just wanted your answer. Most people are not aware that if diagonal parking was added they would lose the left hand turn lanes.
By the way the spaces gained by diagonal estimated 23-26.
Dino if the city was to go to Diagonal parking and the left hand turn lanes were to be elimnated where do you suggest that traffic go. I know where they think it should go (based upon the DSP) however it has serious flaws in my opinion. None that I am sure could not be worked out. I just do not see a feasible solution yet.
Also point of clarification I am only talking about research that I have done and learned from I am not saying that it won't work I just know there are issues that need to discussed and considered that where not before and that is what I am talking about.
Al E, if four way stops replaced the lights then it would not matter what direction you want to turn at any intersection.
Traffic would already be slower moving. A person could park easily, leave easily, and turn at intersections just like they do in other successful downtowns around the area.
The city could use the traffic lights elseware around town and save on expenses.
Al,
Traffic will go other places... on Court, on Lincoln and on other routes. People will figure it out.
And I think Court should be one way, from East to Walnut, heading west.
And I think making Court one way does not mean you have to make Lincoln one way.
If the goal is really to make downtown pedestrian-friendly, it will take a combination of things... and there are solutions that I don't think will cost that much - especially if you consider $40-50 million for one garage at one location.
Some of the issues that I learned and researched.
Heavy traffic and high traffic speeds on main and East Street that is obvious for anyone that has traveled these roads.
If you are diverting traffic off of main street are you suggesting these streets as the alternative?
Heavy traffic and high traffic speeds on Court Street (that just goes without saying) Most likely more depending on the location of the new courthouse.
Heavy traffic currently on Court Street and Lincoln Avenue (more now so due to the location of the new police dept there and the school district and superior court locating in the area.
Vehicle access from commercial uses
into residential neighborhoods. Not something most people would want or allow.
Currently large trucks are prohibited coming down main st unless making a delivery.
How would that be handled if you elminate the left hand turn lanes? They would not be able to navigate the turns.
Would you widen lincoln and court?
Lincoln ends do you open that up?
Do you support making court and lincoln one way to accomplish this?
I know my opinions & research on this I just want to hear others maybe they thought of something that I did not.
I would like to see a more pedestrian friendly downtown as I said I just see many issues that would prevent it from happening for many many years.
Al,
"I know my opinions & research on this I just want to hear others maybe they thought of something that I did not." That's a clever way to get out of providing facts.
Okay, let's talk opinions:
You said: "Heavy traffic and high traffic speeds on main and East Street that is obvious for anyone that has traveled these roads."
I say: Heavy traffic on East Street remains at top speed of 35 mph. Reduce speed on Main. Put in diagonal parking. Put in stop signs. All this will take those in a hurry, non-shoppers, off of Main. This will create a pedestrian-friendly environment.
You asked: "If you are diverting traffic off of main street are you suggesting these streets as the alternative?"
I say: Traffic will go elsewhere, on Court, on Lincoln and other streets. Not necessarily all diverted Main Street traffic will end up on Court and Lincoln.
You said: "Heavy traffic and high traffic speeds on Court Street (that just goes without saying) Most likely more depending on the location of the new courthouse."
I say: I agree, the location of the new courthouse will dictate the use of Court Street. I think the city should give the state Third Street between North and Court. The county should give what they promised. Build the new courthouse adjacent to the old courthouse and utilize the old courthouse. Make the state build a parking structure on the half block bounded by Court, Third, Dead Cat and Fourth. Make Court one way.
You said: "Heavy traffic currently on Court Street and Lincoln Avenue (more now so due to the location of the new police dept there and the school district and superior court locating in the area."
I say: Yes, the downtown has some traffic. The city can make it more desirable by making pedestrian-friendly. Diverted traffic will find the paths of least resistance... like water.
You said: "Vehicle access from commercial uses
into residential neighborhoods. Not something most people would want or allow."
I ask: What people? Those in the transitional areas? The probably don't want to see more traffic. On the other hand, they will probably like the improved amenities and pedestrian-friendly downtown close by.
You said: "Currently large trucks are prohibited coming down main st unless making a delivery. How would that be handled if you elminate the left hand turn lanes? They would not be able to navigate the turns."
I say: Yes, they would.
You asked: "Would you widen lincoln and court?"
I say: Not necessarily, but maybe in the depending on gentrification patterns.
You asked: "Lincoln ends do you open that up?"
I say: That's a good idea. Turn right on East.
You asked: "Do you support making court and lincoln one way to accomplish this?"
I say: Court, yes. Lincoln, no.
Dino said: Make court st one way.
Two issues right away how does the emergency vehicles deal with getting to that section?
Right when there is traffic they come down main st and go right down the center. I want them to.
To get to me as fast as possible if I need them. If you eliminate the left hand turn lanes you tighten up the area in which they travel to get where they need to go. Court and lincoln are just not feasible. Main Street is. Watch I see it everyday and many cars are still in the way even when they have a wide street. How would you deal with that?
1. Another effect on diagonal parking more accidents cause by people having more blind spots due to larger vehicles parking next to them.
2. Seniors and many others avoid parking diagonal as it is hard for them to see to back out and thus we will see an increase in accidents as a result of it.
In fact, numerous studies have concluded that diagonal or angle parking in particular is potentially more of a safety concern than parallel or no parking at all.
Many cities are now looking at reverse angled parking as their way of providing more parking spaces. Not to sure I agree with that.
Next someone mentioned bicycle friendly how do you do that with what you are suggesting?
On the sidewalks?
I am just waiting for a customer of mine to be hit so they can go after the city for not enforcing that ordinance. (You know there is an attorney ready to take that case.)
Al,
In cities across this nation and all over the world, emergency vehicles respond on one way streets. That goes for streets with no left turn lane.
There will be plenty of space on the streets for emergency vehicles. There will be as many or more bicyclists on Main Street. How many are there now?
I think you are grasping for excuses to not make old Main Street a nice destination. Having a business there, I would think you would want a beautified and safer street.
Just look at any other city around. Most have one way streets and their emergency service works just fine.
Dino To say this " I think you are grasping for excuses to not make old Main Street a nice destination" is ridiculous.
I support making it a destination and have so for many years. When these questions were asked at meetings no one had the answers back then and to date I still have not gotten or seen the answers.
I just want all things to be considered thats why the city is having these types of meetings. Discussion is a very good thing. I said research that I have done. I did not say I had the answers. You asked for my input and I at least put my name on it.
To anon: "Just look at any other city around. Most have one way streets and their emergency service works just fine."
I know they do. However the configurations may not be the same and those are questions I have. Seems to me that people want the communities input. I ask questions for which I do not have the answer and so if you have the layout and the answer please share it. To just give a generic response does not work.
Al,
All the ideas/opinions/facts that I've provided are for the purpose of invigorating the old downtown. If downtowners don't want to make it more pedestrian-friendly and make it known through a public process, that's fine. The city has stated it wants to make it pedestrian-friendly but has not done much to make it that way. At what meetings did you ask your questions? Are you waiting for them to answer your questions?
If you asked these questions before, that means these ideas have been presented before so it's not like we're starting from square one. It's time to act... not continue to wallow around waiting for consultants and waiting for bureaucracy. I'd rather try to make changes now... and if they don't work, change them again. At least something will be happening.
Right now I don't consider Main Street a nice place for pedestrians or shoppers, but if property and store owners like it the way it is, that's fine. Your questions are fine, too, and I've responded to each one of them. There are your answers. You, on the other hand, answered questions with questions. And you're the one who said diagonal parking won't work – but have only provided generic reasons (what you claimed the other commenter has done).
I don't know what plans Anon. has but I posted my ideas with the downtown survey last year. You chose to not participate in the survey and you didn't provide any feedback except that you don't want diagonal parking.
As I've stated many times before, diagonal parking is not the sole solution to make downtown pedestrian/shopper friendly. It is a piece of the puzzle, like changing speed limits, replacing lights with stop signs, changing lanes, putting up directional markers, planting trees, landscaping, property improvements, recruiting businesses, etc.
In response to most ideas presented in this thread, you said that they won't work. So instead of grasping for why things won't work, try offering some ideas that you think will work. This little exercise of questioning everything without providing useful information does not come off like you want change in the downtown. I realize you probably do want the downtown to be a nice place, but I haven't seen, nor heard, of solutions that you can bring to the table.
You like to refer to your research... does your research tell you what will make downtown a better place?
I don't know who this Al E is. But I just can't understand why another business in downtown would be putting up such ridiculous excuses or arguments to this easy solution.
Waiting for a customer to get hit by a bicyclist so the city will start enforcing an ordinance seems very strange to me. I wish NO ills on MY customers.
Who in the world would want fewer customers in their business? We want MORE customers to have access to our downtown shops and services.
The "shortcut" (Main Street) being used currently by Freeway traffic NEEDS to be diverted. Immediately. After all, the traffic going up and down Main are just passing through. They DO NOT stop along the way. As a matter of fact they are so busy fighting the lights and other traffic they can't help but ignore the businesses.
If the ONLY traffic on Main street were people who wanted to visit our downtown, isn't THAT what we want?
Emergency vehicles will get to their destinations just fine. Stop signs would allow for left turns. And, by the way, having left turn lanes does not mean a car can make a left turn. The lights are not set up to let the left turners go before the oncoming traffic. Most drivers can not turn left even WITH left turn lanes!
And Dino, I agree with almost all of what you have written. I think both Court and Lincoln should be one ways. There is quite a bit of commercial mix on Lincoln that would benefit. Creating one way's on both sides of Main might even open up some pavement to add bike lanes.
Signed,
Red
Al do not waste anymore of your time on responding on this blog. It is a waste of time. Dino and others only want to complain and attack you. Realist you need to get control of your blog again.
3:16 Master of Disguise
The Realist has full control of this blog. He can post any story he wants and he can delete any comments he wants.
As a matter of fact, he posted a similar story on April 2, 2007, and was met with criticism by a certain blogger named "Downtown Business Owner" whose tone and language has a peculiar ring to it.
Check it out:
http://www.woodlandjournal.com/2007/04/can-main-street-be-fixed.html
I attended a traffic meeting at the Hotel Woodland on same issue diagonal parking on North side, some years back. Al E was shortsighted on this issue then and he hasn't changed. An I recall Woodland would gain 33 parking spaces at Cost of $10,000.00 for signage and stripping. The left turn lane would go away and that lane of traffic would travel west. Parallel parking on South side. Check with the City and you should get the information
What is the point? I posted it under downtown business owner.
Why is that a problem? More hide under Anon then at least give credible names.
To anon: 3:16 I am not bothered by Dinos opinions and thoughts we just see things different sometimes. I run into the same with others. Suits me just fine.
Dino I have listened to your arguements against the downtown parking garage and I have come to see your point. Originally, I thought it would be great to have a garage so close by but now I see that it wouldn't really solve anything. I wouldn't park in a garage in our downtown because it is sure to become just another place for the agressive homeless pan-handler and his druggy family that are currently living in heritage plaza to haunt (ie sleep in, urinate and deficate in, vandalize ect)
I like the idea of 4 way stops-it works in downtown Davis-another city with high traffic flow. People would be annoyed initially but it would work.
The left turn lanes aren't useful now; I like many people have run the red numerous times to make it... So glad the ticket lady hasn't caught me so far.
Delivery trucks are supposed to use Dead Cat and Dog Gone allies for deliveries. Those trucks on Main are mostly passing through on to HWY 16.
Making Court oneway from East to 1st St is a good idea because a lot of the traffic in that area is already circling for the court house anyway. Linking Lincoln to East is also a good idea too. Lincoln has stop signs and could handle increased traffic although the residential folks won't like it.
Since this thread is abt parking, I'll end with a comment that I think diagonal parking would be great. It would eliminate those stupid little short redzones that the ticket lady loves so much. That alone would bring more people downtown but the city would lose the income from all those $40 tickets. Diagonal parking would be safer if there where stop-signs in place of the lights or if the lights were timed to break traffic longer so a car could back out. Diagonal parking is way easier than parallel parking for many people including seniors...at least the ones I know :)
Al,
My point to 3:16 was that the Realist posted a similar story and there were similar criticisms to his opinions... so it's not just me on this issue.
And you already pointed out to 3:16 that you and I are perfectly happy to disagree on things. (Granted this IS the second issue in a row, which is unusual.)
But those two points are really off of the topic of downtown parking. I think all things should be on the table when it comes to parking... like possible diagonal parking to improve the atmosphere of downtown or being creative with space to avoid dumping millions of dollars on a parking garage that really just benefits a couple of special interests.
There's a big enough battle to get the city to actually do something... so when ideas are dismissed within the ranks "just because," I think it contradicts the goal to improve the downtown. Would there be lots of "i"s to dot and "t"s to cross with ideas such as diagonal parking (one side of the street, both sides, some here, some there)... yes. But to just say that diagonal parking won't work just doesn't fly with me. I need to be convinced it won't. I haven't been convinced for all the reasons I've included in this thread.
Am I putting pressure on you to convince me? Yes. And in addition to convincing me diagonal parking won't work, I'd like to see some ideas on how we get the downtown to become a destination. And we need to push for reasonable ideas to be put into the Downtown Specific Plan. The DSP needs to be revised and this time we need to make our ideas known. The last DSP was contrived by city staff for the benefit of a favored developer. We need something that can produce results for all downtown property and business owners.
Dino,
Here is a link to a CalTrans document reguarding Downtown Main Streets that are also state highways. I may be wrong but isn't our Main St Highway 16 as well?
The Caltrans document is based on real "research" and includes a recomendation for including stop signs and timed traffic lights as well as outlines some of the potential problems of diagonal parking.
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/oppd/context/main-streets-flexibility-in-design.pdf
Closer representing the same issue.
http://www.ashland.or.us/Files/Intersection%20Report.pdf
1:34
Highway 16 no longer goes through downtown. CalTrans required many of the undesirable changes along the street... like they made the owner of the State Theatre take down the big marquis.
The city needs to take the street back entirely, including the renovation of the State which could be done with a theater developer - instead of using a theater developer as a bait-and-switch for a garage on the other end of the street.
Here is what your document said about diagonal parking: "Angled parking can be forward (nose-in) or reverse (back-in). However, it can create problems due to the varying length of vehicles and sight distance limitations associated with backing up against oncoming traffic."
The varying lengths of cars is a consideration. On the other hand, the catch phrase one can use is context-sensitive design which is just what designers have always done - plan spaces for the specific area considering all the circumstances unique to that locale and the goals one wants to achieve there.
As far as diagonal parking and bicycles... for the most part, bicyclists don't use Main Street. With diagonal parking, it might be that would continue. Personally, I would rather see pedestrian-friendly solutions employed rather than scrap plans to that end in favor of bicycle use. That said, the "bicycle capital of the USA" has diagonal parking in its downtown:
Fourth Street, Davis.
E Street, Davis.
9:00
Ashland can just as well be 30 miles from Woodland or 300 miles from Woodland. Appropriate parking needs to be determined for a specific area according to the specific goals of that area. Ashland's needs are different than Woodland's. Never-the-less, here are some examples of California cities accepting diagonal parking:
El Cajon, California: RDA recommends diagonal parking on Main Street.
Huntington Beach, California: Council approves diagonal parking
Porterville, California: Resolution for diagonal parking
Coronado, California: City policy is to pursue diagonal parking
Lompoc: California: Resolution to establish a diagonal parking zone.
I would agree that diagonal parking would not work for a 35 mph zone... but for every instance where diagonal parking is not acceptable there are instances where it works. I have demonstrated that. It all comes down to what we want Main Street to be. Along with other changes, I think diagonal parking will help make it a pedestrian-friendly environment.
Dino Point taken.
To be very clear I am for calming traffic and making downtown more pedestrian friendly period.
I just found a copy of a study done in 1982 that says adding diagonal parking spaces between elm and fourth st from parallel would we would only gain one space. Which contradicts what I learned from the city council meeting. A few years ago.
Another item worth noting in this study was that removing the State Hwy designation. Cal Trans advised the city they would only see a 2% drop in flow.
Remember this was in 1982. 17 years ago this same topic was discussed and we are still no where and to me that is very sad.
Another fact since you seem to want them Dino. I support Diagonal parking on main I just have many unanswered questions.
Nothing to other than that.
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